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FionaS View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 June 2008 at 1:43pm
Right. So Elle is a pretty grumpy grump at the moment.

I am still convinced there is something underlying her tenseness / irritability but we are not going to find out what that is so I just need to deal with the behavioural side and I need some help!!

We went to music this morning and Elle enjoyed dancing. However, I am a leader so I need to help with chores. After music Elle decided she wanted to leave so lost the plot. It's either her way or the screaming-way with her. I had to stay to vacuume so told her "Gabrielle I know you want to leave and you feel frustrated but Mummy just needs to help clean up and then we will go. You can stay with mummy and help or go and play with the toys. We will leave soon". So she proceeded to scream and scream and scream...I mean real full on, someone is torturing me scream. I usually just leave but I really wanted to do the vacuuming as it was my turn. By the time I was done, she was a mess...saturated with tears etc. And yet the moment we left, she was 100% fine, giggling, running away from me in the carpark etc.

This type of thing happens many many times a day. I have read books, watched supernanny etc so have some ideas of what to do, the need for consistency etc but it is hard!

How would you deal with this type of thing?
Mummy to Gabrielle and Ashley
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katie1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote katie1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 1:48pm
That is so hard Fiona. I honestly think that you handled it perfectly. I can't think of anything else - you gave her choices, explained her feelings to her and made things clear about what you were doing. You are doing a great job. She is lucky to have a Mummy like you.
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Bizzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bizzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 1:55pm
wise words i have none of ...

obviously she wanted you to leave and the fact you didnt cause she was screaming is good. the only other thing i do is if the behaviour continues then i tell toby (my screaming paddy thrower) that the behaviour is unacceptable and if we are home take him to his room and tell him if he wants to scream he can do it there.

oh and i suppose making sure that while she was scraming you are ignoring her and carrying on as normal as possible...


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FionaS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FionaS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:06pm
The ignoring part is so hard when the small person is clawing at your legs!
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Bizzy View Drop Down
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ah, thats when you remove them and take them to a diff part of the room and tell her its not acceptable (or whatever word you choose) then go back to where you were and carry on and do that as many times as it takes....

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MrsMojo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrsMojo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:20pm
Fiona you are a great mum and you're doing a fabulous job with Elle.

It seems she's now at an age where she's demonstrating her power over you. Toddlers are brilliant at giving you guilt trips.

The important thing is not to give in, which is what you did this morning and that's excellent.

The other equally important thing is not to give the behaviour any attention - none at all, not even angry words because in a toddlers mind negative attention is better than no attention at all. She's a smart girl and she'll quickly learn that there's no point playing up.

If it's really getting too much for you, the noise and/or having her pulling on your legs find a safe room or blocked off area to put her in. Pick her up and carry her without cuddling or looking at her and put her down and leave her there while you continue what you have to do. If the hall where you're vacuuming is the only safe place remove yourself for a few minutes.

It does seem awful and listening to them cry is heartbreaking but trust me, this method works on even the most stubborn child and soon all you need to do is threaten to remove them and they will stop.
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FionaS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FionaS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:25pm
Another Q for the experts:

What about at dinner time. Last night all was well, I served dinner and we excitedly sat around the table for a family dinner. She took 1 look at her plate and started to scream. She wouldn't try it, she wanted to get down but when down wanted to be up etc. I tried to reason with her - that didn't work, tried to ignore, that didn't work etc. It went on and on. 30mins later she was still going and asking for rice (which means sweet creamed rice). As the entire tantrum was over her wanting rice, I didn't want to give in but didn't know what to do so once she was calm, got out the creamed rice and let her have it.   Was that the wrong thing to do? i.e. did that give her the message that the tantrum was worth it??
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MrsMojo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrsMojo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:26pm
Part: 2

For situations when you know you're going to be busy and suspect Elle might play up the best thing to do (easiest on both you and Elle) is to prevent the situation.

When you're going to be busy after mainly music take an activity with you: a snack (or a sugarfree lollipop), some colouring in books and crayons, put a cd on so she can continue dancing (you could even get her a kiddi walkman).

Is there anything that particularly works for keeping her occupied at church? Maybe you could try this too.
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FionaS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FionaS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:29pm
Mrs M - at church she was going very happily to creche which is a huge room (next to the one we use for mainly music) filled with toys etc. She would just jump down straight away, wave goodbye and run off to play.   She was fab there for a couple of months but now is going through this new phase of being insecure again...

As an aside, she is seeing the chiropractor again tomorrow for the first time in 4 weeks (yahooo!) so I am sure that will help heaps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrsMojo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:36pm
Part 3:

Alway remember you're doing a fabulous job as a mother, it's the toddlers that are feral! You are not alone!! Check out this thread from January (when Michaela was about Elles age) Link

I recently read that the worst of the toddler trantrums start happening at about 18 mo as they realise their independence without understanding their boundaries. The same book also said that the tantrums start to ease off around 2 - 2.5 years old which certainly seems to have happened for us (she still has them but less frequent and not as bad).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrsMojo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:45pm
Wow, I obviously type too slow.

Dinner time - you did what worked for you, and doing this sort of thing as a one-off isn't bad at all the important thing is to not let it become a habit. If she starts doing it every meal time then it's time to send her to bed without dinner (I'm not kidding, it does work but I'd only use it as a last resort).

Creche - is it safe for her to go and play in the creche room when you have to clean up after mainly music? Do you do cleanup every week? Maybe part of the issue is the routine changed, she may have got upset because you normally leave straight away but didn't this time.

Edited by MrsMojo
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FionaS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FionaS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:53pm
We alternate duties. 4 weeks leading music, 4 weeks on welcome/clean up, 4 weeks on morning tea. So far I have been less than helpful every week as Elle **needs** me to stay beside her, and do whatever she wants. She'll be fine until I do something else. It is like she wants my undivided attention ATM.

Daddy is very unpopular. Poor guy gets home and Elle says "no daddy, bye bye". It's all mummy, mummy, mummy ATM. Heaven forbid DH and I should have a hug...she hates that most of all!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cuppatea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:56pm
I was like that with my mum at that age, apparently she couldn't even go to toilet without me screaming down the house.
Is there anyway you could involve her in whatever you are doing at mainly music. Get her to go and pick up the big bits of rubbish before you vacuum, or with morning tea get her to help unpack the bits and pieces etc.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote my4beauties Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:58pm
Oh hun, sorry to hear you're having a tough time with Elle at the moment. Just thought I'd comment on this...

Originally posted by FionaS FionaS wrote:

As the entire tantrum was over her wanting rice, I didn't want to give in but didn't know what to do so once she was calm, got out the creamed rice and let her have it.   Was that the wrong thing to do? i.e. did that give her the message that the tantrum was worth it??


I think that giving her the rice definitely in her mind she would've thought she'd won, and her having the tantrum was worth it.

DH & I have a rule that the kids eat whatever is dished up on their plate. If they don't want to eat it all, but eat most, that's fine. But they get that meal and no other option. They'll always try to ask for icecream after they've had their meal, but know that they won't get any if they don't eat what we've dished up.

Every child is different though, and I have to say that R & G are pretty good at meal times. Gia is a lot more fussy and more of a snacker, but I think that's the age as well. So you making that a rule with Elle, may be easier said than done.

It's definitely HARD work standing your ground, and very tiring! I know this, but I'm determined not to let my kids rule the house. After a year or two sorting Rico out through his terrible 2's and 3's, he's now really good and i feel it's paid off being so stern with him. It does get easier if you stand your ground with her. Otherwise Elle will work out how far she can push you, and will keep doing it, knowing that you will give in at some point.

If Gia is asking for something she's not allowed, i.e. a biscuit or muesli bar when dinner's not far off, and I say NO! sternly and that dinner's coming, she'll wait. If I say no, softly and nicely she keeps on asking. I may sound harsh saying NO sternly to her, but she then see's I'm serious on the matter and no room for budging. If she thinks there's room for me to give in, and keeps asking, I get down to her level, look in her eyes and say NO Gia, don't ask again you're NOT having it. Go and play with your dolly or read your book until dinner is ready.

Sorry if I've babbled there. I hope you can get some wise words out of all that .
My babies:

R (9),G (7), J (5)

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MrsMojo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrsMojo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 2:59pm
Michaela used to get really upset when DH and I kissed or cuddled. She'd try and pry us apart. We started involving her in our cuddles and would both give her big kisses on her cheeks at the same time - she thought it was hilarious and now doesn't mind us cuddling but often comes over so she can join in too.

Edited by MrsMojo
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FionaS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FionaS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 3:08pm
My concern re: dinner is that she is already awake for hours on end in the night and if she is hungry I fear she will be awake even longer. Perhaps I should've given yoghurt instead of rice.

Cute re: cuddles Mrs Mojo. We include Elle too but she just hits us until we stop cuddling. Jealous wee madam.
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my4beauties View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote my4beauties Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 3:30pm
Yes, our older 2 get jealous when DH & I cuddle. Funny things aren't they!
My babies:

R (9),G (7), J (5)

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FionaS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FionaS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 5:31pm
I'm taking Elle back to the doctor tomorrow as this is rediculous. The only time she is happy is if watching TV or at the park. The rest of the time she is crying about goodness only knows what. She is in her room screaming as we speak. I do not know what the problem is but she had been crying not wanting to be up or down or to play for 20mins and so I needed some time out.

Please tell me this will get better. I am at breaking point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paws Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 6:19pm
To be honest I think the situation you described in the first post you handled it fine, it sounds no different to the tantrums our miss has thrown when she can't do what she wants. That's when we employ time out. We even had to do time out in the Warehouse twice the other day to the amusement of everyone else

Perhaps she really is at the age where she is testing the boundaries like never before. As I say, we do often get similar behaviour from Maddie.

It's not easy though, we're sometimes exhausted listening to her wobblies!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paws Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2008 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Bizzy Bizzy wrote:

ah, thats when you remove them and take them to a diff part of the room and tell her its not acceptable (or whatever word you choose) then go back to where you were and carry on and do that as many times as it takes....


I so agree with this!! Sometimes it can seem to go on forever but if you don't crack they will learn that when you say something you mean it. It does work and it does get easier.

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