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kakapo
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Topic: Informed consent: do you know what it is? Posted: 30 January 2011 at 9:59pm |
nzpiper's post about peeing on sticks at MW appointments reminded me of how I stumbled across this alien concept of "informed choice and consent", halfway through my second pregnancy.
I was at the Homebirth Aotearoa Conference 2009, listening to a woman talk about how she declined to have any form of monitoring while she was pregnant with her third child. No peeing on sticks, no scans, no monitoring bubs heartbeat, nothing. Unless she requested it. She trusted herself to know when things were going well, and to ask to have something checked if she felt she needed it. Being a rather paranoid type myself, part of me was horrified at the thought of such an approach - in this day and age ! Yet I was also intrigued and a little in awe of her. I found myself asking "Why ARE we offered all these tests/monitoring procedures/forms of medical intervention during pregnancy and labour? Do we HAVE to do everything the midwife tells us? Can we say no, we don't want to pee on a stick today?".
In NZ the “Code of Health and Disability Services Consumers’ Rights” gives anyone (including a pregnant woman) who is receiving any health or disability service, the right (amongst others) to “receive a service only when you have made an informed choice and given your informed consent”. The website I linked to above provides a good overview of how this relates to pregnancy, labour and birth. A must read for every pregnant woman I reckon .
As Lynda Williams from the Maternity Services Consumer Council wrote in 2007:
"Pregnancy has now become a 9-month long medical event in which women are encouraged to subject themselves to frequent testing, data collection, and an increasing amount of technology in order to help guarantee a perfect baby, and a painless and stress-free birth. What impact does this growing dependence on outside technology to confirm her health and that of her baby have on the woman and her experience of her pregnancy? How does it impact on the ability of her body to care for her baby before birth, to give birth, and to breastfeed her baby after the birth?"
All thought provoking stuff, huh? So, did you know about informed consent before reading this post? Do you think you'll approach pregnancy/labour/birth any differently now? Have you declined any type of medical intervention you've been offered already?
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Hopes
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 6:58am |
I know people who have chosen not to have scans etc. One lady I know didn't have any right up until she went overdue, then decided it was worth it for the sake of the baby. I find it easy to respect their decisions even if I don't agree with them if I know they've researched it properly and just arrived at a different conclusion to me.
I went into pregnancy totally aware that I could decline to do anything. I also went into the pregnancy fully aware that there are people who spend years studying pregnancy and childbirth, and that I thought their advice and recommendations were very important and valuable.
I'm sure Lynda Williams has felt the way she described, and perhaps other mothers have, but what she said in your quote didn't strike any chords with me at all. Rather, I really enjoyed learning as much about what was happening with my changing body and growing baby. I didn't feel that anyone was guaranteeing a perfect baby or a painless and stress-free birth (that line made me crack up, actually) - but rather, than I was getting as much information as I could to deal with any bumps along the road when they arose. If Jacob had have had something like Down Syndrome, for example, I would have been really appreciative to know in advance, so I could learn as much as I could about DS children and be prepared to love him for who he was from the start, not be surprised by a shock at his birth.
Perhaps I am slightly influenced by my backgroud with fertility treatments. I've come to realise that outside intervention can be incredibly helpful (Jacob wouldn't exist without it) and I'm comfortable going to people who really are experts in their field for help and advice.
In saying that, I said no to stuff in my pregnancy. One officious Dr, at my post dates appointment, tried to insist that I have the baby at hospital due to some pre-existing health issues. I'd already discussed these with my GP and midwife, and agreed that a birthing center (which was what I wanted) was fine, and I stuck to that. I was also very keen to avoid an induction, and managed to do that (with a little help from the lad, who got his act together at the last minute).
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High9
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 7:32am |
I figured I could always say no to some things, though there were things I wanted to know/see - scans, blood tests, hearing HB... During labour next time I won't be having internals unless necessary, did let the mw do them last time but did like to delay a couple...
I too liked learning what was happening with the baby and my body and enjoyed my experience. I agree with hopes and the downs syndrome baby, would be nice to read up and know as much info as possible beforehand though sometimes that can be missed too as my mum knows someone who has a downs baby and it wasn't picked up in her scans.
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shadowfeet
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 8:31am |
I knew about informed consent with DD's pregnancy but due to health problems I didn't refuse anything. However, this time I will be picking and choosing a little, but will be having all the scans, vitamin K, testing etc. I have refused some medication for what is best for my baby.
Unless you trust your MW fully, never take medications from them without researching. I was prescribed dangerous medication for breastfeeding newborns and it was only a week after welcoming my new baby so don't presume they know best on everything.
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Hopes
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 8:52am |
Yea, I wasn't too impressed with my MW in some respects like that, Shadowfeet. She perscribed Jacob antibiotics for a staph infection, which is all well and good since he needed them and they cleared up the infection nicely. But when I mentioned that I was keen to avoid giving him anti-b's so early in life, and wanted to check whether they were absolutely essential etc, she really just brushed me off. Which I thought was quite rude and condescending, there are good reasons to avoid giving babies antibiotics unless they really need them, and the least she could have done was listen to me and explain why she thought they were necessary.
Edited by Hopes
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AandCsmum
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 9:01am |
I like the idea of all the testing. If I hadn't had testing then my daughter after a healthy 9 months could have caught strep B.
I am very much on the side of forewarned is for armed.
My goal was the perfect healthy baby born safely & alive. With Cooper I had loads of medical intervention during my pregnany seeing I was SFD's that didn't change that I delivered him in 5 hours all up with no intervention other than the dopler to check heart rate.
So IMO medical intervention does not hinder the end goal of a healthy baby.
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A = 01.02.04 & C = 16.01.09 & G = 30.03.12
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fallen
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 9:18am |
This time round I've told my midwife that I'm okay with doing one diabetes test but I'm not doing three like last time UNLESS there is a medical reason to do them ie peeing sugar. I'm not doing them because my baby is measuring big. I KNOW I have big babies, I'm a bigger person and so is DF.
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Plushie
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 9:32am |
Might be just my midwife but sometimes i wish she'd stfu about my informed choice and do whatever it is already! I am very much of the feeling that she's spent 30+ years delivering babies and whatever, i've only been pregnant for x amount of time. So while i've asked for Vit K sip, not the jab and to birth the placenta naturally (no injection) if she tells me at birth baby needs the injection for x reason then i'm not going to say no. Though i think its important she tell me at the time ("we'd like to give him the injection because..." instead of "Oh, by the way, we gave him the injection")
She is very, very cautious about making sure i know every little piece of information about every blood test, scan, examination. Frankly, i don't care why you're poking my stomach, just tell me there is a baby in there and we're good to go - after seeing you for a few months i know you're just feeling his growth and position, you don't have to remind me, get on in there.
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HippyMama
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 12:06pm |
First time around, I had most of the standard tests / scans / procedures.
Second time around I had doppler only until the heartbeat could be heard then switch to a pinard, two scans, and declined blood / diabetes / pee sticks unless I felt they were required. I had researched everything extensively, and was far more self aware than I was with my first pregnancy. I also had a very understanding midwife, who was more at ease with clients choosing to decline more than they might accept.
I found a lot of people I knew were surprised though, as they thought the various tests etc were compulsory - as per the OP this is not so.
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Mama to two earth walkers & two angels.
Remember, you are not managing an inconvenience; You are raising a human being. ~ Kittie Franz
Next Slingbabies! Meet - Friday 4th May !!
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cuppatea
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 1:45pm |
Yep I know what it is, no medical procedure/test ever has to be done, it's only what is advised and you choose whether or not you want to, but I do get that often it's not protrayed that way so people can end up thinking you have to do it.
I've turned down extra scans cos I didn't think there was a need, mostly as it would of been to decide whether to terminate if there was a problem which we wouldn't do so I didn't see the point, I've also ignored the OB's advice to come to the hospital at the first contractions and be monitored constantly during my VBAC and i think if I hadn't of ignored that I would of not had a VBAC.
I also think subsequent pregnancies are very different to a first one, you know and trust your body more as you've been through it before and that makes it easier to say no to things as well.
Oh and just one last thing, if it was an emergency situation I would be more than happy to trust the judgement of the professionals, I just think that when it's not an emergency it's better to get informed, ask questions and ultimately make the decision for yourself once you have all the relevant info.
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ArielAngel
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 5:15pm |
That's quite interesting.
My midwife has been quite good in this regard. Every single blood test and scan I have had, she has said that I don't have to have it if I don't want to. So far I haven't felt like I've had to do anything, even though I've had them all.
Being a first time mum I've been quite nervous through the whole process so having scans and test has helped put my mind at ease, next time around I may not bother with many of the tests and it's nice to know that I can say no.
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After 16 months TTC, surprise BFP July 10 DD1 Mar 11 After 9 months TTC, BFP on 4th Clomid cycle Feb 13 DD2 Oct 13
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amme_eilyk
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 6:51pm |
I knew about informed consent. I had all of the tests except for the downs blood test as it would not have made a difference either way for us. I had the scan though as I wanted to see the baby.
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busymum
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 7:12pm |
I declined all scans for DD1 because I wasn't convinced they were safe. When I haemorraged mid-labour I consented to my first scan then. But I found all the professionals non-confrontational about my decision, even during the haemorrage scare.
I wouldn't decline the blood work, blood pressure/urine tests because I think they can be beneficial in picking things up early. But I would consider declining having a preventative IV line inserted in me "next time" (IF!!) because it is unnecessary, irritating, and doesn't take long to insert if they did need it later on.
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mummymonster
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 7:25pm |
I think about it differently now that I did before DS.
One thing I haven't changed my mind about is, I think a lot of people have forgotten how dangerous it was to have a baby 50+ years ago. Or worse 100+ years ago. A lot of pregnant woman & babies didn't make it.
I'm more assertive this time on what I do and don't want done, but in saying that I'm happy with the monitoring and tests. It's not that bad and I like hearing babies HB every few weeks.
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JadeC
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Posted: 31 January 2011 at 10:24pm |
I find it interesting that you assume we wouldn't know about informed consent. I realise that it may be the case for some people, but its a little insulting to assume we all just floated through our pregnancies without bothering to question/learn/research anything.
I guess I can only speak for myself, but I definitely made myself aware of the risks and benefits to both myself and my baby of everything we went through (insulin, hospitalisation, GD testing, scans, peeing on sticks, induction, c-section).
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kakapo
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Posted: 01 February 2011 at 9:37am |
Sorry JadeC - I never intended my post to be insulting! Please accept my apologies. I was just genuinely interested to know whether it was common practise for midwives etc to explain what informed consent is to pregnant women, as it wasn't spelt out to me at any stage during my first pregnancy. But I can see from the posts above that perhaps my experience was more of an exception. And it's great to see that most people seem very aware of what it is .
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BugTeeny
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Posted: 01 February 2011 at 9:50am |
I can't say I knew about "informed consent" as such, but I like to think I'm a grown up and can make my own choices regarding my own health/children, so I made sure I voiced my opinion all the way through both pregnancies.
Luckily my MW and I were on the same page and I felt like she heard and respected me.
However, regarding this:
kakapo wrote:
As Lynda Williams from the Maternity Services Consumer Council wrote in 2007:
"Pregnancy has now become a 9-month long medical event in which women are encouraged to subject themselves to frequent testing, data collection, and an increasing amount of technology in order to help guarantee a perfect baby, and a painless and stress-free birth. What impact does this growing dependence on outside technology to confirm her health and that of her baby have on the woman and her experience of her pregnancy? How does it impact on the ability of her body to care for her baby before birth, to give birth, and to breastfeed her baby after the birth?" |
I completely disagree with this, and always have.
Science and technology have a place in society - there's a line, absolutely - but I think it's a necessary part of life.
Using it to placate paranoia is a bit extreme. But as a diagnostic tool it's great to have it!
Someone very close to me had the life of her baby, and herself, saved by the routine nuchal scan. Had she not have had that things could've ended in disater. She had NO idea anything was untoward, but had the scan for the reason it was made for - to measure the nuchal fold - and discovered issues that were managed thanks to that scan.
And, speaking for myself, I had the scans, blood tests and pee'd on a lot of stick - my labour and birth (while textbook) were NOT painless and stree-free as that quote suggests (however, my children are perfect  ).
Yes, 35 years ago when ultrasound didn't exist, babies were made, cooked and birthed just fine (a lot of us are living proof of that) but I do believe it's not the can of worms some people make it out to be!
OK, rant over.
interesting points to ponder
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karenb_chch
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Posted: 01 February 2011 at 12:50pm |
I have been aware of 'informed consent' throughout my pregnancy, but I have to say that I am really grateful for the level of medical supervision that is available if you want/need it.
During a routine pee-on-a-stick test at 18 weeks, my MW picked up potential diabetes (with no symptoms) which was confirmed by a GTT. The interventions since then have meant that neither my health or my baby's health have been affected by the GD. Having said that, I research everything, so I know about all the treatments before the Dr/MW discuss them with me ...
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Hopes
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Posted: 01 February 2011 at 1:53pm |
I agree, MamaPickle. As an example, my cousin's wife (cousin-in-law?  ) had a scan which showed she had a placenta previa which never moved up. Her son was born by a c-section, and both are healthy and well. In the days before we could find out such things, there would have been a good chance of both her and the baby dying at birth. Now, that didn't make the experience painless and stress-free, but I bet she was thankful for the technology we have nowdays! And something like that isn't all that uncommon at all (just like back in the day, dying in childbirth wasn't all that uncommon).
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MummyFreckle
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Posted: 01 February 2011 at 2:47pm |
In my mind this isnt a debate about whether medical testing / science etc has a place during pregnancy - I think its more interesting to know whether midwives and doctors are actually letting you know that you have a choice.
I was aware of informed consent from working in the health industry and in hospitals for a number of years, but also because (like MamaPickle said) I am a grown up and can make choices....BUT I do wonder how many people are seen that DONT know that they have a choice and are effectively bullied into tests / scans that they dont want or dont need. A lot of places in Auckland charge for scans too, so it would be interesting to know how much of their business is from people who dont know that they have a choice. Its a gross generalisation I am sure, but I have certainly never heard a midwife, GP, Doctor or a nurse explain informed consent to anyone.
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